Can anyone prove otherwise? It depends on the level of proof you are looking for. Dating cymbals from the die stamp pressed into them, possibly augmented by other morphological features which distinguish late 50s from s the two eras missing the three dots "issue" has been established for some years now. However, the person Bill Hartrick who claims to have started it all has yet to publish his raw data or even sufficient summary data so that his claims can be tested and independently examined.
He has also "unpublished" as many copies of his timeline as he can manage and in place of that there are a number of sites which have timelines which are reputed to be flawed in various ways. He has also so alienated Zildjian by saying unpleasant things about them that they won't have anything to do with him. The only reliable data which can provide a degree of "proof" about the age of cymbals and how this relates to their die stamp trademark and other morphological features is to provide at least a table which lists each cymbal where a date is reliably known from some other independent information, what the date of the cymbal would be using a proposed "timeline" based on die stamp trademark and other morphological features and take your analysis from there.
The independent information you need is a purchase receipt, or a drum kit which is dateable and purchased at the same time.
Those are the most reliable sorts of information correct me if I've forgotten something else this is just off the top of my head. Bill Hartrick claims to have done this but has never produced even summary numbers to say something like "stamp X being late s is based on 13 strong cases". We're still investigating whether the two different stamp dies were used in different years, or whether they overlap in time.
We're still gathering evidence. But given what we know about the use of 3 stamping machines and thus 3 different dies of the same basic stamp plus the time lags between being manufactured and being stamped, it still isn't clear whether there is chronology information to be gained from SSA and SSB.
A. Zildjian Cymbal Stamp Timeline
For examples of hammering on these Small Stamp cymbals go to the hammering page. I'm hoping to refine what "later 60's" means and whether the shorter and taller stamps might have been used at the same time.
But that currently seems as elusive as distinguishing the stamps and the s stamps without considering the hammering. But when you compare the 60s stamps to the late s small stampin the s the Ottoman portion also appears bold.
This is a subtle difference and how clearly it appears depends on how well the die stamp is pressed in. Of course, it is easier just to use the presence of the three dots to tell. The top red line in the photo above shows the top of the stamp. You will see the line touches the top of the stamp in 3 places.
Any of those 3 places may be used as the top to measure from.
A The height of the stamp is measured vertically between the two red lines. Fortunately you don't need to measure the height that accurately just to tell different stamps apart. Below is a picture of the stamp being measured with the ruler in place.
Dating Dating zildjian cymbals
All the key attributes are there to be seen. I have noted 4 spots where there are breaks in the way this particular stamp is pressed in. These aren't found in all cases, but they are common enough to be worth mentioning. I haven't yet been able to determine if they represent an occasional pressing flaw, low spots on that particular die, that particular die starting to wear out, or something else. I've seen a dozen people misidentify a 60s stamp as a Hollow Block because they aren't looking closely enough.
If you do a direct comparison of the two they are different: The true outline font of the Large Stamp Hollow Block is much cleaner and the surface of the cymbal isn't pressed in at all in the hollow portion of the lettering. The ends of the letters are also sharper and more square. These are all illustrated in a photo of one of these s pseudo Hollow Block versus the real Hollow Block Finally, if the stamp stumps you, there are other production clues on cymbals like late 50s visible hammering and lathing and the treatment of bells which let you tell a mid s cymbal from a s cymbal.
For examples of hammering on these s cymbals go to the hammering page. This is sometimes called a "Tall Stamp". But don't confuse Tall Stamp 60s with Large Stamp mid s. Very different production eras.
They are, but what lets us tell them apart without measuring is the pattern of breaks or quirks. But when they are present, the flaws are in the D and I which can sometimes look like an isometimes the left side of the V, and occasionally the left side of the top of the A.
Dating a Zildjian A (logo's)
This list is different from the short stamp which has the flaws at the top of the Ottoman, AED but not Iand the upper portion of the comma.
If you go bak to the very first photo in the s section that's the only flaw present in that particular pressing. I have one cymbal with this 1. However, the whole stamp is very lightly pressed in so that much of the detail is missing.
That makes it easier to measure the distance accurately. I move the tape as required to get it in just the right place. With a strong stamp you may not need to do this. But with a faint stamp it can help a lot. Here it is in action reporting One was produced in the same way as the Avedis cymbals of the day. The other was a thinner unhammered cymbal. I don't know if the second style was restricted to the period, or if both cymbal types were present in both periods.
I don't yet know if there was any die stamp difference between the two eras or between the two different types of Zilco by AZCO cymbals. For examples of the sort of hammering to expect on these 70s Zilco by AZCO cymbals see the hammering page.
I've come across two more AZCO stamps which were also used, and there may be more. The first is one used for cymbals to be sold with Rogers drums: You can see this particularly in the A which is the letter they have in common. On stylistic grounds alone one might suggest that this AZCO CANADA stamp is the later one, and this is consistent with this version being the later stamp which Pinksterboer says is used on thin cymbals which aren't hammered presumably just pressed into shape.
Dating A Zildjian Cymbals Cymbal Talk [DFO] Drum Forum Vintage and Modern Drumming Community
This AZCO Canada stamp appears on this 20" cymbal which is certainly thin g and appears to be just pressed into shape. So all of these AZCO stamps can be generally referred to as s. Meanwhile back in the USA there were other changes afoot for the s. The s stamp doesn't have the three dots.
It shares this one very obvious thing with the s small stamp. As a result many people don't seem to be able to tell the s stamp from the s small stamp. However, there are a couple of other differences between the s small stamp and the s stamp which make the difference clear given a decent photo.
We'll review these again in the next section. For examples of the sort of hammering to expect on 70s cymbals see the hammering page. But you should be aware that this usage is non standard, as are other things on that site. I would say that this site is best avoided unless you really know what you are doing.
But if you really know what you are doing, you probably don't need to use it.